sciencetalk

Het was wel een beetje eenzijdig he dokter! Dan denk ik gelukkig maar.

From the above data it is obvious that by HTLV-III (HIV) isolation was meant detection of more than one of the following phenomena:

1. RT, either in the culture fluids, or in the material from these fluids or cellular lysates which in sucrose density gradients band at 1.16 gm/ml;

2. In culture fluids, but not in the material which bands at 1.16 gm/ml, particles with morphological characteristics of retroviruses (RVP);

3. Proteins, (p41, and in some cases, p24), which, in sucrose density gradients, band at 1.16 gm/ml, (but without proof that they are unique constituent parts of the particle), and react with patient sera.

However, isolation is defined as separating an object, (HIV), from everything else, and not the detection of some phenomena attributed to it (RT, WB), or similar to it, (RVP). Phenomena can only be used for retroviral detection, not isolation, and even then if, and only if, it is first shown that each is specific for the virus by use of the only valid gold standard, HIV itself, "HIV isolation". It is important to note that in the earlier (1983) report by Montagnier's group on HIV (LAV) isolation, the same experimental procedures and findings as those described by Gallo were reported. The only exception was that Montagnier's group did not "infect" an immortalised cell line, yet Gallo's group considered that Montagnier and his colleagues had not described "true isolation".(6) In fact, in 1984, evidence existed that RT, antigen-antibody reactions (WB), and RVP, are non- specific for retroviruses. The indirect evidence, that is, evidence that has been obtained without a gold standard from recent AIDS research, has confirmed the above.

Antigen‑antibody reactions.

One can claim that a given protein is an antigen derived from an exogenous retrovirus if first it is shown that:

1. The protein is a structural component of a particle;

2. The particle is a retrovirus;

3. The protein is coded exclusively by a viral and not a cellular gene.

Once the above are demonstrated, the only way to prove that the antibodies found in AIDS patient sera are directed against the viral antigen is to use the antigen or the isolated virus as a gold standard. The mere finding that a protein from the AIDS cultures bands at 1.16 gm/ml and reacts with sera from AIDS patients cannot be considered to simultaneously prove that:

1. The protein is a viral antigen;

2. The antibodies in the AIDS patient sera which react with the antigen are specific for that antigen.

At present, it is known that about 80% of the proteins which band at 1.16 gm/ml, some of which react with some AIDS sera, do not constitute any of the proteins ascribed to HIV.41,42,43 Most importantly, prior to the publication of the Science papers, evidence existed, confirmed since, which is at odds with the conclusion that "p24 and p41 may therefore be considered viral structural proteins"

HIV fulfills Koch's postulates as the cause of AIDS.

Among many criteria used over the years to prove the link between putative pathogenic (disease-causing) agents and disease, perhaps the most-cited are Koch's postulates, developed in the late 19th century. Koch's postulates have been variously interpreted by many scientists, and modifications have been suggested to accommodate new technologies, particularly with regard to viruses (Harden. Pubbl Stn Zool Napoli [II] 1992;14:249; O'Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613). However, the basic tenets remain the same, and for more than a century Koch's postulates, as listed below, have served as the litmus test for determining the cause of any epidemic disease:

1. Epidemiological association: the suspected cause must be strongly associated with the disease.

2. Isolation: the suspected pathogen can be isolated - and propagated - outside the host.

3. Transmission pathogenesis: transfer of the suspected pathogen to an uninfected host, man or animal, produces the disease in that host.

With regard to postulate #1, numerous studies from around the world show that virtually all AIDS patients are HIV-seropositive; that is they carry antibodies that indicate HIV infection. With regard to postulate #2, modern culture techniques have allowed the isolation of HIV in virtually all AIDS patients, as well as in almost all HIV-seropositive individuals with both early- and late-stage disease. In addition, the polymerase chain (PCR) and other sophisticated molecular techniques have enabled researchers to document the presence of HIV genes in virtually all patients with AIDS, as well as in individuals in earlier stages of HIV disease.

Postulate #3 has been fulfilled in tragic incidents involving three laboratory workers with no other risk factors who have developed AIDS or severe immunosuppression after accidental exposure to concentrated, cloned HIV in the laboratory. In all three cases, HIV was isolated from the infected individual, sequenced and shown to be the infecting strain of virus. In another tragic incident, transmission of HIV from a Florida dentist to six patients has been documented by genetic analyses of virus isolated from both the dentist and the patients. The dentist and three of the patients developed AIDS and died, and at least one of the other patients has developed AIDS. Five of the patients had no HIV risk factors other than multiple visits to the dentist for invasive procedures (O'Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613; O'Brien, 1997; Ciesielski et al. Ann Intern Med 1994;121:886).

In addition, through December 1999, the CDC had received reports of 56 health care workers in the United States with documented, occupationally acquired HIV infection, of whom 25 have developed AIDS in the absence of other risk factors. The development of AIDS following known HIV seroconversion also has been repeatedly observed in pediatric and adult blood transfusion cases, in mother-to-child transmission, and in studies of hemophilia, injection-drug use and sexual transmission in which seroconversion can be documented using serial blood samples (CDC. HIV AIDS Surveillance Report 1999;11[2]:1; AIDS Knowledge Base, 1999). For example, in a 10-year study in the Netherlands, researchers followed 11 children who had become infected with HIV as neonates by small aliquots of plasma from a single HIV-infected donor. During the 10-year period, eight of the children died of AIDS. Of the remaining three children, all showed a progressive decline in cellular immunity, and two of the three had symptoms probably related to HIV infection (van den Berg et al. Acta Paediatr 1994;83:17).

Koch's postulates also have been fulfilled in animal models of human AIDS. Chimpanzees experimentally infected with HIV have developed severe immunosuppression and AIDS. In severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID) mice given a human immune system, HIV produces similar patterns of cell killing and pathogenesis as seen in people. HIV-2, a less virulent variant of HIV which causes AIDS in people, also causes an AIDS-like syndrome in baboons. More than a dozen strains of simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV), a close cousin of HIV, cause AIDS in Asian macaques. In addition, chimeric viruses known as SHIVs, which contain an SIV backbone with various HIV genes in place of the corresponding SIV genes, cause AIDS in macaques. Further strengthening the association of these viruses with AIDS, researchers have shown that SIV/SHIVs isolated from animals with AIDS cause AIDS when transmitted to uninfected animals (O'Neil et al. J Infect Dis 2000;182:1051; Aldrovandi et al. Nature 1993;363:732; Liska et al. AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses 1999;15:445; Locher et al. Arch Pathol Lab Med 1998;22:523; Hirsch et al. Virus Res 1994;32:183; Joag et al. J Virol 1996;70:3189).

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/evidhiv.htm

HIV fulfills Koch's postulates as the cause of AIDS.

Among many criteria used over the years to prove the link between putative pathogenic (disease-causing) agents and disease, perhaps the most-cited are Koch's postulates, developed in the late 19th century. Koch's postulates have been variously interpreted by many scientists, and modifications have been suggested to accommodate new technologies, particularly with regard to viruses (Harden. Pubbl Stn Zool Napoli [II] 1992;14:249; O'Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613). However, the basic tenets remain the same, and for more than a century Koch's postulates, as listed below, have served as the litmus test for determining the cause of any epidemic disease:

1. Epidemiological association: the suspected cause must be strongly associated with the disease.

2. Isolation: the suspected pathogen can be isolated - and propagated - outside the host.

3. Transmission pathogenesis: transfer of the suspected pathogen to an uninfected host, man or animal, produces the disease in that host.

With regard to postulate #1, numerous studies from around the world show that virtually all AIDS patients are HIV-seropositive; that is they carry antibodies that indicate HIV infection.

With regard to postulate #2, modern culture techniques have allowed the isolation of HIV in virtually all AIDS patients, as well as in almost all HIV-seropositive individuals with both early- and late-stage disease. In addition, the polymerase chain (PCR) and other sophisticated molecular techniques have enabled researchers to document the presence of HIV genes in virtually all patients with AIDS, as well as in individuals in earlier stages of HIV disease.

Postulate #3 has been fulfilled in tragic incidents involving three laboratory workers with no other risk factors who have developed AIDS or severe immunosuppression after accidental exposure to concentrated, cloned HIV in the laboratory. In all three cases, HIV was isolated from the infected individual, sequenced and shown to be the infecting strain of virus. In another tragic incident, transmission of HIV from a Florida dentist to six patients has been documented by genetic analyses of virus isolated from both the dentist and the patients. The dentist and three of the patients developed AIDS and died, and at least one of the other patients has developed AIDS. Five of the patients had no HIV risk factors other than multiple visits to the dentist for invasive procedures (O'Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613; O'Brien, 1997; Ciesielski et al. Ann Intern Med 1994;121:886).

1. Uit resultaten van de surveillance van accidentele bloedcontacten (ABC) in de Belgische ziekenhuizen (EPINet) van het Wetenschappelijk Instituut Volksgezondheid (WIV) (47 ziekenhuizen of 24 % van de Belgische acute ziekenhuizen) voor de registratieperiode juni 2003-december 2005 blijkt dat er bij het ziekenhuispersoneel jaarlijks gemiddeld 10,1 prikongevallen, verwondingen door instrumenten of bloedspatten per 100 bedden voorkomen. GeКxtrapoleerd naar alle Belgische acute ziekenhuizen gaat het jaarlijks om 5 700 ABC. Dit cijfer is een onderschatting van het probleem omdat heel wat ABC niet gemeld worden. Uit een CDC-studie blijkt dat 57 % van de ABC niet worden aangegeven en bijgevolg dit cijfer waarschijnlijk mag verdubbeld worden. Deze cijfers zijn gelijkaardig aan de cijfers gerapporteerd in andere EPINetwerken in Europa, maar liggen ver onder de cijfers gevonden in de VS. (Bron : Leens E., Resultaten juni 2003-31 december 2005 : surveillance accidentele bloedcontacten in de Belgische ziekenhuizen, WIV/EPI REPORTS N3 2006, Depotnummer : DD/2006/2505/12)

The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis came into existence as a group of signatories of an open letter to the scientific community. The letter (dated June 6, 1991) has been submitted to the editors of Nature, Science, The Lancet and The New England Journal of Medicine. All have refused to publish it. In 1995 The Group was able to get a letter published in Science.

24-7 schreef:@ypsilon:

PROBEER aub buiten de hiv$aids box te denken en dus NIET aan te komen met de eerste de beste link waar men het woord 'isolatie' gebruikt.

=>De discussie gaat er juist over dat wat zij bedoelen met isolatie geen geldige isolatie is.

Waarom dit niet geldig is heb ik uitgebreid INHOUDELIJK beschreven in mijn 3 voorgaande posts.

tjonge tsjonge jonge .... nogal moelijk he, dat buiten de box denken. Als dit op een wetenschaps forum al zo gaat kan ik me goed voorstellen dat de hiv wetenschappers al 25 jaar binnen dezelfde denkbox aan het rondrennen zijn